Wikizziunariu:Cìrculu/Archiviu/2005

Maiuscolo/minuscolo a inizio parola

Per piacere tente presenti che questo wiktionary "conosce" la differenza tra maiuscolo e minuscolo - quindi al contrario con wikipedia le parole vanno inserite con inizio corretto.
Esempio: non Tedescu, ma tedescu per creare una nuova voce. Grazie!!! -- SabineCretella 18:11, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Ciau Sabine - I'll be working on the system messages soon. Congratulations on a wonderful job setting this up thus far. You'll note that sometimes I leave messages providing alternatives and other times I am simply making straight out edits. I don't wish to impose the Wikipedia style manual - maybe at some stage both wiktionary and wikipedia will reopen the issue and redecide it jointly - I would rather more voices decide such things than too few (within limits of course).

While I am here - I have to say again that tedescu looks thoroughly Italian to me. Piccitto doesn't have it at all. He has Tudiscu: tedesco, lingua tedesca; and he has tidiscu as a secondary entry. Now I'm not fussed at the moment because it's still early days, but also because this sort of problem will come up again, and again and again. Some will want pre 1800 spelling, others will search out the spelling of around 1950 a la Piccitto (such as myself) and others will search out the spelling of 2000, which will nearly always represent corrupted Italian - something, which I feel, is best avoided for the integrity of a Sicilian dictionary. But - this is the sort of policy question that a committee will eventually have to decide - and I would propose that there be an overiding committee for both wikipedia and wiktionary so that the same standards apply - just a suggestion. Salutamu. --pippudoz 11:05, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Tedescu, tidiscu, tudiscu

Ciau Pippu! I changed to tudiscu as it is used on wikipedia - the others are inserted as synonyms. And this is the point where I will open another discussion thread about "which words to insert". As for other terms you will find it is more apropriate to change the term: just do so - I often don't know which one to choose. As for the several mails that came through the forum: I'll insert most things by tomorrow evening and then come back to the forum with the next issues. I am a bit sorry that I am causing so many messages there. Ciau, Sabine --SabineCretella 09:19, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Which word is the correct one?

We frequently will have the discussion on which version of the word is the "correct" one to be inserted - imho as long as a word is used it is to be inserted, since we are not writing wiktionary for people who already know the language, but for people who don't know it. So what really needs to be done is then to insert a note that explains that even if "a" is used in at text, "b" would be preferred. Adding to old versions a note that it is indeed a way to express a certain concept, but it is out of date and therefore one should refer to the actual term. It makes no sense to exclude any used words as this would prevent people from understanding the language. Even in German, Italian etc. dictionaries often you find words specified with "historical word" or something like that. -- SabineCretella 09:53, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Ciau Sabine - excellent point, I was going to make a similar myself. Just as Wikipedia (across all languages) is getting more serious about using references (rifirimenti, culligamenti, liami) - we have to employ the same discipline in Wiktionary. I propose two things (and apologies to all about getting slack in using Sicilian - quannu la basa veni finita, scrivu tutti li mei missaggi 'n sicilianu, pi ora è megghiu pi Sabine e autri siddu scrivu 'n ngrisi):

To make sure the advancement of the Sicilian language is proceeding in the best possible manner, that Wikipedia and Wiktionary be viewed as sister projects. For maximum effect, I propose that there be one overarching committe to oversight the policies of both. As an initial suggestion, the exising Wikipedia committee of four, be expanded to six or seven to include the primary people working on Wiktionary. If need be, we review all existing policies in Wikipedia to ensure that everyone is happy that they are viable and will suit Wiktionary.
Regarding Wiktionary specifically, it is best if all entries have some sort of authority, not just academic, but literary is ok too. There are sufficient examples of scholarly and literary works in Sicilian to ensure that virtually the whole of the vocabulary can be referenced back to at least one authorative usage. This concept isn't foolproof, but it is a whole lot better than people putting in words off the top of their heads (not that that has happened yet, but it might in the future). Salutamu, pippu.

Where to start to insert words

Here we have different possibilities - start from the

"list of 1000 basic words" in English and translate it into sicilian
go ahead with groups of words (names of months, days, seasons, countries etc. (please see my main page of the user profile User:SabineCretella where I started to insert groups of words to insert
take "correct" texts, create wordlists out of them and insert vocabulary based on these words (please send me these texts in order to enable me to create a list of words)
take proverbs, quotations, poems or better literature in general and insert these words

the last two options for sure represent words that sould be in wiktionary as they are used words - once inserted everyone of us should add what he/she is able to do - classification, definition, translations, synonyms and notes.
Reading the discussion of the use of "x" in Sicilian words I thought about how many people use this kind of writing. If there's a percentage and people are likely to come across these words in texts they should be inserted as well - then it is up to the notes to clarify from which period they are. Do you have any further notes on this? -- SabineCretella 13:48, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC) If you have further ideas on how we could retrieve words, please let me know.--SabineCretella 13:48, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

All that makes good sense - I like the idea, wherever possible, of clarifying whether a particular word is a local variation and having links to the other forms, showing whether the word is archaic, indicating whether its use has been taken from poetry, what peiod, etc. On the question of "x" - this is merely a start of what could be a never-ending series of questions: what form or forms of spelling of particular words are acceptable? To be honest, I don't think that "x" (the same sound as is found in Catalan, e.g. xocolata) has been used in a serious way since around the 16th century. So to me, it is the equivalent of introducing archaic letters from Old English, like б, etc. It is precisely for this reason that we may need a committee to set policy about what goes in, how it goes in, etc. - no different to what you would find in any wikipedia. The same questions arise about cacuminal DD, whether it be shown as DD, or DDH or DDR. There are people who want to push all sorts of strange orthographies and I would hate for wiktionary to be captured by such people, i.e. we should stay within the limits of recent scholarly work, within the limits of the 4 greatest Sicilian poets Meli, Tempio, Martoglio and Buttita, and we should try and steer clear of personal adventurism and experimentation - otherwise, you end up with something that lacks credibility. I'm not trying to put up obstacles, nor do I have personal agendas, accept a search for the most widely accepted, researched and expressed form of written Sicilian. Lastly, where did you find jnnaru? I have seen jinnaru, innaru and ginnaru - all forms that we could put in the dictionary, but jnnaru? It doesn't seem to follow any of the normal conventions. The "j" at the start of a word in Sicilian (where it is used, plenty support not using it at all) has a consonantal value, so in this case it would have to be jinnaru. Salutamu. --pippudoz 22:17, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I found jnnaru on the website mentioned on the linguasiciliana forum - the one that also has the pronounciation. If you go on google and insert it you receive 70 pages that use it. So now I am going to add jinnaru, innaru and ginnaru :-)
This is the difference of wiktionary to wikipedia - while wikipedia defines a standard language or creates redirects to the standard words on wiktionary you need to define the words and out of this definition one understands what is standard or not. German is also a good example for this: not too long time ago German rules for writing were changed by a committee, but there are still many people writing following the old rules - so it is necessary to insert these terms adding a note that the spelling is "before official changes" were made.
As you see: it is not an easy task over here :-)
If you find links to poems I should include in the creatin process for the word lists, please let me know - and thank you for the edits. There we will have one problem: I now have this list of approx. 7000 words I am adding step by step (yesterday the servers were so slow that at a certain point I gave up) and you are taking out the non valid words - and this is great - but next time I create the list, these words will be in there again. So now I need to figure out a system on how we can avoid them in the list and on how you can edit only the new entrances. Maybe before uploading we should decide this - I am going to write a message to the forum.
--SabineCretella 07:39, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

List

Another thing that is different to wikipedia is the use of templates. I copied the list from the Italian wiktionary here Wikizziunariu:Template. They help to share information between other wiktiuonaries. For example "nglisi" was copied and pasted from the Dutch wiktionary adding Sicilian (you will find that the Italian wiktionary as well as some other ones have the same lists of translations). This can be done in particular for basic words (languages, names of places, days, months, planets, everyday terminology like house, hand, leg etc.
Maybe we should create a basic template for every wordtype. -- SabineCretella 07:50, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)